PROPECIAHELP: Persistent Finasteride Propecia Proscar side effects info & discussion forum

Forum for men with PERSISTENT sexual, mental & physical side effects which CONTINUE DESPITE QUITTING Finasteride (Propecia, Proscar), a 5AR inhibitor drug for hair loss, prostate enlargement & prostate cancer.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:16 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:07 pm
Posts: 273
Age: 32
Drug: Propecia
Usage: 30d
Started: 10 Jul 2006
Stopped: 11 Aug 2006
Location: South Africa
Hello!
I "revived" this topic with the meaning of bringing more attention to creatine monohydrate and to it's possible effects. It would be good to investigate what it does exactly as i have felt EXTREMELY good sides on it.

I'm joined here recently after a month of evasive reading. My story can be found in the Stories-section: http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4823.
Recently, my symptons i fear the most have got worse - shrinking of penis and testicles. I don't have too many tools to fight against the changes for now so instead i focus on the supplement i found useful but have become too dependant upon - which i consider to be a bad thing since the mechanism and possible effects of creatine are unknown.

Following Enden's theory on recovery at the beginning of this PFS, we devised that we wanted to avoid the symptons of secondary hypogonadism by getting DHT over the estrogen. This is when Enden suggested having a trial with creatine monohydrate, based on a single study.
Creatine monohydrate is a supplement used commonly by bodybuilders for it's beneficial effects to muscle training with seemingly no side-effects, usually applied by a week of overloading followed with an time of daily maintenance dosage that varies between individual to individual (as in varies between practise). Creatine can cause diarhea, cramps or even stress to liver if it's not taken with a large amount of water. Here is what is said about it's effects to DHT - i suggest reading that and other related links in this site. I think a lot of you are familiar with this study. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19741313

Quote:


Clin J Sport Med. 2009 Sep;19(5):399-404.
Three weeks of creatine monohydrate supplementation affects dihydrotestosterone to testosterone ratio in college-aged rugby players.

[...]

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Serum T and DHT were measured and ratio calculated at baseline and after 7 days and 21 days of creatine supplementation (or placebo). Body composition measurements were taken at each time point.

RESULTS: After 7 days of creatine loading, or a further 14 days of creatine maintenance dose, serum T levels did not change. However, levels of DHT increased by 56% after 7 days of creatine loading and remained 40% above baseline after 14 days maintenance (P < 0.001). The ratio of DHT:T also increased by 36% after 7 days creatine supplementation and remained elevated by 22% after the maintenance dose (P < 0.01).

CONCLUSIONS: Creatine supplementation may, in part, act through an increased rate of conversion of T to DHT. Further investigation is warranted as a result of the high frequency of individuals using creatine supplementation and the long-term safety of alterations in circulating androgen composition. STATEMENT OF CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Although creatine is a widely used ergogenic aid, the mechanisms of action are incompletely understood, particularly in relation to dihydrotestosterone, and therefore the long-term clinical safety cannot be guaranteed.

PMID: 19741313 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Publication Types, MeSH Terms, Substances
Publication Types:

* Randomized Controlled Trial

etc etc


Unfortunately, i have yet to complete understand and study the material provided in this site but to cite the FAQ, due to the inhibiting effect of finasteride's toType II 5 alpha-reductase, the DHT production suffers in the individual. Especially the genital area oftentimes suffers from the halved production of DHT, hence shrinking, pains, infertility and numerous other issues.

When i was on creatine, i apparently took a larger-than-usual dosage of creatine monohydrate, propably around 35mg. I can say that i felt great benefits from it. Let me quote a part of my story:

Quote:
Enden from hairloss.com advised me to drop the finasteride altogether. Couple of days i was fine but then i crashed.
Symptons at that time (beginning): Emotional flatness (notable); No more sexual or affection fantasies; Penis shrinkage; Genital numbness; No morning erections; No spontaneus erections or visual arousal; No arousal/pleasure from masturbation?; No sexuality; Lack of energy; Depression and Anxiety. Rubbery erection and watery ejaculation propably got fixed pretty soon as i quit.

-

From Enden's recommendation i started my recovery with zinc supplements at November 22th - apparently, a large amount of zinc (50-100mg) would act as an aromatose inhibitor to estrogen. It was assumed that my estrogen was high and we wanted that the morning erections would appear again.
In the following few weeks after fin my energy levels improved VASTLY/GREATLY and i became more lively and present. This time overlaps with the time when i used creatine too. First morning erections came back at 26th to 31th of November but they were still limp or vague.

Enden recommended an experimantation with creatine monohydrate because of this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19741313. Since we wanted the DHT to get a raise over estrogen to avoid the bad side-effects of high estrogen, I followed the recommendation of the study at used ~35mg every day from 5th to 12th of December. I meant to take 25mg but i didn't have a teaspoon with me so i estimated it wrong! There was however no damage from this as the creatine overdose would result to a short-term diarhea.

At 8th of December i had a good twist of events: I had a raging boner in a train after having none for a long time! Pretty soon after my penis size returned to normal and my morning erections almost returned. I DID do some clumsy practises of kegel exercises prior to that but i doubt that was it that worked so well. Enden commented that DHT had affected his penis size so we assumed that weeks big progress was because of creatine. I commented that the occurances of visual stimulation -> boner starts happened constantly even though i did not feel sexual excitement from it or didn't feel the visual provosal. This was kind of weird in retrospect!

14th December (two days after the end of creatine round) Enden warned me about not driving estrogen too low and around this time i had a really bad flu and a fever. Possibly due to the fever, it was really hard to even manually arouse my penis so i concluded that gulp it's the estrogen! So i quit zinc.

The following month after quitting of zinc was pleasant! My sexuality and mental health stabiled. No spontaneus erections but morning erections were back in full force. My penis was in a good size! Pleasure and fantasying during/from masturbation was possible. I felt even sexuality was improving and i had a taste for sexual pleasure again. Excitement from girls. Good energy levels.
All in all, steady but small progress in every way. Nothing disastrous as what others had described. Optimisms. I could LIVE with this, i thought.


The benefitting effects lasted about a month and a week i think. Two weeks before the end of this "maintenance" period (i didn't take any of creatine during it of course) the old symtons were returning as expected: shrinking of penis being the most notable. Howvever, the amount of my ejaculation was also dropping to half! Which was unexpected and made my desperate. There is also a lot of other sympton rollercoaster related to this period - especially the new symptons that appeared at the end & after the second monohydrate round were interesting.

And like i mentioned above: due to my shrinking penis and other terrible symtons, i tried a second round with creatine monohydrate. This time around, however, i started taking the right dosage of 25mg (5 teaspoons) for almost the entire duration of that week.
Once again, it worked out the midweek on as i expected - one morning i even woke up with a raging morning wood!
However, this is where things got comlicated. My penis was quite shrink when i finally took creatine. It did increase in size really soon but i observed that it hadn't returned to the size it was during the first creatine week...? It was almost a quarter smaller in all ways, thinner you could say. There was a small pain in the right side of my lower stomach which i didn't think was important for couple days at the end of the creatine.

My sexuality wasn't improving quite as fast as my penis - in fact, it was ceasing even during the treatment. At the end of it new symtons appeared:
Quote:
January 28th a drastic change happened: Sexual arousal was hard and it was hard to fantasize and my morning erections were getting vague at this point. February 1th my ejaculation amount was normal but it had changed to mostly transparent. Arousal was almost impossible and my penis felt nothing now! At this point i observed that my penis might not have actually returned to original size as i had assumed. I also had felt sensation of sensitivity in my left nipple at this point, whatever it means...

We speculated between Enden that the symptons could have been either low or high estrogen - which is why i finally tried to get my hormones mapped for the first time. I'm getting them mapped next Thursday.

Unlike the first time with creatine, my condition didn't stay stabile for a month but instead started to decline quickly after a week i used creatine, at February 7th. Even the penis was shrinking again and my testicles felt uncomfortable. My left nipple became sensitive for a long time, now it's fine.
This is when i first experienced the symptons of adrenaline fatigue - there was eye-sight problems around then and even before but i never made a connection that it could be adrenal fatigue especially induced by cafeine. Some of the eyesight problems must be hormonal changes though i guess. I am currently studying the issue and cutting cafeine altogether along with minimizing high gluteine stuff the best i can.
Arousal and erections became possible in a week albeit it was difficult but it improved gradually from there. The quality of my ejaculation is actually pretty good right now which makes the symptons even more confusing.
However, thorough all this time my morning erections have been disapearing. They are almost gone now.

--

I am currently reading through all the creatine posts in this forum. It seems this place was more interested of it back in 2009 and 2010 summer. I'll continue my story, questions and ponders once the topic gets approved.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:53 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:19 pm
Posts: 847
Hey mate

As you're probably aware it was me who referred Enden to this study.

Anyway, there's a few issues here.

Firstly, that study is limited for several reasons. We've no idea if the increased DHT levels can sustain. Likely not. And if that did, due to negative feedback mechanism your testosterone might be negatively affected over a longer stretch.

Secondly, it's not necessarily the case that your DHT levels are even low in the first place so why take creatine to increase your DHT without bloods, first?

Thirdly, the test is on healthy males not PFS sufferers.



It's interesting and worth experiment for sure hence why i noted it over in that forum, but i don't think supplementing DHT in any manner is likely to be a long term (or any) real solution.


Not to mention creatine is associated with kidney failure so i wouldn't be comfortable taking large doses for sustained periods nor would i recommend taking these doses without loads of water!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:15 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:07 pm
Posts: 273
Age: 32
Drug: Propecia
Usage: 30d
Started: 10 Jul 2006
Stopped: 11 Aug 2006
Location: South Africa
Colin297 wrote:
Hey mate
As you're probably aware it was me who referred Enden to this study.

Anyway, there's a few issues here.
Firstly, that study is limited for several reasons. We've no idea if the increased DHT levels can sustain. Likely not. And if that did, due to negative feedback mechanism your testosterone might be negatively affected over a longer stretch.

Secondly, it's not necessarily the case that your DHT levels are even low in the first place so why take creatine to increase your DHT without bloods, first?

Thirdly, the test is on healthy males not PFS sufferers.

It's interesting and worth experiment for sure hence why i noted it over in that forum, but i don't think supplementing DHT in any manner is likely to be a long term (or any) real solution.

Not to mention creatine is associated with kidney failure so i wouldn't be comfortable taking large doses for sustained periods nor would i recommend taking these doses without loads of water!

That is EXACTLY the point i was going to bring. Introducing more DHT might have brought more (Type II?) 5 alpha-reductase activity in my genitals but at what cost am i doing this? :cry:
Introducing more DHT without taking care of SHBG or balancing between E2 and free T was a bad idea. Messing up with my balance only makes the natural enchancing-balancing even more harder job. I have NO way to evaluate this now.

I've already established that creatine only lasts for about a month in the bloodstream before it ultimately loses it's effect... either due to negative feedback system reacting to it or that the creatine's effect wears off. Maybe both!
It's interesting that so far i seem to be the only case who got benefits to shrinking and Quality of Life but i guess others with shrinking genitals might get the same benefits from it too. You know...more labratory human-rodent experiments :lol:

I think the major difference is that second time around (without aromatose inhibitor) i got more severe PFS-like symptons, along that the penis really didn't improve as much as it did the first time around. The pain around my genital area is new and scary. The decline in penis size occured soon after the trial.
The fact that all of sudden i'm suffering from adrenal fatigue symptons too (cafeine crash) means that my adrenal system is taxed and out of whack too. Lucky that brain fog hasn't appeared but on the other hand, the evening fatigue gets closer to that so it's a mess.
Note, I've had hypothyroidism from before that got worse during Gefina and i am only medicating it with T4 as per the current European standard. Since getting natural thyroid supplement is just not an effective option, i can only work on the cortisol axis first :x I'm getting my cortisol tested (sorry, no T3) at Thursday to see if they are high. Even if they aren't i am still going to work on the adrenaline system, if not only because of the testosterone binding effects of it but for the difficult fatigue problems also.

I'm still considering a new trial with creatine after all this if just to buy extra time but i dunno... to what i'd use it? What a mess, this genital shrinking... i'd take brainfog over this any day.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:25 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:33 am
Posts: 1611
Age: 28
Drug: Propecia
Usage: 34 days
Location: Earth
gefinauser wrote:
... i'd take brainfog over this any day.


my brainfog is absoulutly crippling, i cannot think any more period.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:26 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:07 pm
Posts: 273
Age: 32
Drug: Propecia
Usage: 30d
Started: 10 Jul 2006
Stopped: 11 Aug 2006
Location: South Africa
tim1911983 wrote:
gefinauser wrote:
... i'd take brainfog over this any day.


my brainfog is absoulutly crippling, i cannot think any more period.

Gulp!! Gulp!! I'm sorry, i sounded belittling. I'm sorry.
Perhaps you'll find a way through reading recovery stories - lot of them are people who recovered from brainfogs and mental impairements.

However, besides shrinking i think my muscle wasting has really started now so it's getting worse. Facial muscle athropy is the worst when it comes to bad appearance things.

Which is why i am still considering doing a third trial on creatine. I'll propably do it regardless of symptons. Today i tried to get some private doctor to actually get more expansive hormone tests done NOW now that it's cheap for me but the asshole... the fact that it was my first test and that i admitted that it was finasteride blew my chances.

So uh i really can't hurry this process! I am doomed to wait for months to get any doctor believe me and give me proper lab test and hormonal treatments and i don't want to take it.
I don't know, i'd need to order all those testo boosts vitamins and supplements and that takes time and money. Muscle wasting and penile/testicle athropy blows hard.


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